“Waiting Doom” Hogwash
Posted by WhiteCoat on July 26, 2008
I know I’m a little late to the party after being away for a week, but I had to put in my two cents about this article titled “Waiting Doom” that was put up on Slate.com on Thursday. What a bunch of horsepuckey.
Kevin broke the news about the same thing on Thursday. Kim at Emergiblog and David Catron at Health Care BS have already posted excellent rants on the topic. Now it’s my turn.
First, it’s a pet peeve of mine when people call the emergency department the “emergency room” or the “E.R.” There are waiting rooms. There are bath rooms. It is an emergency department. Within that emergency department are trauma “rooms,” psych “rooms,” gyne “rooms,” multiple general treatment “rooms,” clean utility “rooms,” dirty utility “rooms,” plus labs, ultrasound, and on and on and on.
I know that someone is going to ask me “Well then why do they call the TV show “ER” then? It’s going off the air, isn’t it?
It’s the emergency department, not the emergency room.
Now that’s off my chest.
These Waiting Doom authors first sensationalize Esmin Green’s death. I think that bandwagon is a little full, but hey, if it you can get some extra mileage out of it, go for it. Shouldn’t have happened. People should have helped.
Then the authors focus on something that is a growing problem in the US – waiting times in the emergency department. Great! We need to vet this issue more! Longer waits contribute to higher morbidity and mortality.
Then the whole article gets a flat tire, crashes and burns.
So the authors appear to be accusing hospitals of murder because the hospitals intentionally board patients in the ED to save money. Give me a break. I just don’t buy this conspiracy theory for a lot of reasons.
Reality is that if a hospital is boarding patients in the ED, it means the hospital is at its capacity. Maybe all the beds aren’t full, but if the beds are all not full, then there isn’t enough staff available to care for the number of patients in the hospital. I have worked at a lot of hospitals in my career and I have friends that work at dozens of other hospitals. Never have I heard of hospitals boarding indigent patients in the ED while sneaking “direct admit” patients with insurance through the back door. I can’t say that it never happens because I haven’t worked everywhere. I have been around the block a few times and the whacked out allegations in this article are news to me.
How exactly do hospitals benefit from admitting patients versus taking care of the same patients in the ED? If you assume that 100% of the patients that use the ED are uninsured, the author’s little scheme might work. But think about it – if the community in which the hospital sits has 100% uninsured patients coming to the ED, are the demographics going to be that much better for the directly admitted patients?
Are indigent patients going to take taxis, trains and buses to hospitals in the affluent suburbs? Doubt it.
Are multimillionaires going to call their docs and request a direct admit to a ghetto hospital? Of course not. I don’t have any formal studies to back up my assertions, but the hospitals at which I work have similar percentages of paying vs. non-paying patients in the ED and on the floors. By keeping ED beds full, it seems to me that you’re just as likely to turn away a paying patient as you are to turn away one that doesn’t pay.
Do floor nurses play “hide and seek” with floor beds as the authors suggest? Definitely. A lot of times the floor nurses are as overworked as everyone else in the system. In fact, bed hiding has risen to an art form – especially around shift change. But I still don’t see how an hour delay in transferring an ED patient to the floor improves the bottom line of the hospital.
Does the “auto-triage” that the authors describe happen? Absolutely. Patients who have minor complaints have to wait while those who have more serious complaints are seen first. That’s just the way the system has to work. If you were the one having a heart attack and there were ten kids with ear infections ahead of you in line, you would want things that way. After waiting in the waiting room for 24 hours, there may be an incentive for the patient with a runny nose and cough to actually see a primary care physician.
Another thing that doesn’t make sense: In order for the authors’ scheme to work, the medical staff would also have to be complicit in the hospital’s little conspiracy. All the doctors and nurses would have to secretly look up the demographic information on the patient charts, put on our black overcoats and dark sunglasses, go to whoever is in charge of bed control and say “Pssssst. You. Yeah you. Commere. The patients in beds 2, 5, 17, 31, and 33 have insurance. Bump them to the head of the line. Pass it on.” If we assume that non-paying patients are undesirable, wouldn’t the ED staff try to make those patients the first ones to be admitted to get them out of our hair?
Hospital administrators have little ability to correct the problem with ED waiting times. In many instances, administrators are working on a shoestring budget. They can’t admit patients if they can’t afford to hire the staff. They can’t hire the staff if they don’t have the funding. Did your representative vote for the 10% Medicare cut? They’re just asking for longer waits and more bad outcomes. Think that $10 million judgment against the hospital “serves them right” for missing some obscure problem in a 99 year old granny with terminal cancer and three days left to live? Think of all the staffing that $10 million could have purchased. When you have to travel three times as far to get treatment for your heart attack or stroke, maybe granny’s relatives will send flowers to your family after reading your obituary in the newspaper.
The silly thing with this article is that the authors recommend that patients “vote with their feet” and go to EDs that don’t have long boarding times.
Knock knock knock. Hellooooooo.
If the practice of boarding indigent patients in the ED really saves money, and if the hospitals really board indigent patients to try to make them leave, isn’t the hospital across town going to treat indigent patients the same way? You get fed up waiting in line at one hospital’s ED because you have no insurance and the other hospital is just going to say “Sure we’ll butt you in front of all our insured patients. Come right this way.”
Oooh. Maybe not all the hospitals know about this instant revenue stream. Hey – these authors are from the University of Pennsylvania and Penn’s profits were up by 6.5% the last fiscal year – the best performance since the Pennsylvania Health Care Cost Containment Council started keeping records in 1995. Compare this to the fact that one quarter of Western Pennsylvania’s hospitals lost money in the last fiscal year. Maybe they’re on to something. Maybe Penn needs another federal audit to make sure it isn’t committing any more health care fraud.
Seriously, though, I have to question whether these authors actually work in the emergency department at all.
If they did, instead of telling the uninsured patients to go where the boarding is the shortest, they would have told the uninsured patients to go to the EDs where they have the best cable TV selection.
At least then during their waits, they could catch up on the latest reruns of “E.R.”

Rogue Medic said
One way that it may appear that they are cherry picking patients is that a transferred patient will have a bed committed to them before they arrive. EMTALA requires that a transferred patient be accepted by a doctor at the receiving facility before transport. So this may seem as if someone from elsewhere is getting special treatment. They are generally getting special treatment in that they are being transferred to a specialty hospital.
In Philadelphia there are a few hospitals that have closed down the ED of one of their hospitals and made it into a nursing home, or a medical office building. Any patient needing to be admitted will be transferred to the main hospital, since the satellite ED has no other place to admit the patients. These satellite EDs are not in wealthy parts of town, so few of the patients being admitted are financially well off.
As far as conspiracies are concerned, the hospitals would also have their own assassination squads to get rid of the uninsured/Medicaid patients who are running up huge bills that come out of the hospitals’ pockets. Dr. 007 rappelling in through the impossible-to-open hospital window, placing an untraceable poison in the patient’s inedible food, and sneaking back out without anyone noticing. If the patient isn’t able to eat, the TPN would receive the secret snuff sauce.
The presence of conspiracy theories is probably due to a lack of understanding on the part of the theorists and fear due to that ignorance.
The other problem with the megamillion dollar lawsuits is that they often come with non-disclosure clauses, so that nobody will ever know what the problem was, or if there really was a problem. The only ones who benefit are the lawyers (40% + expenses) and whoever receives what is left of the settlement. Secret settlements are not in the interest of improving the healthcare of future patients.
Kim said
Beautifully stated! I was so angry when I first read the article I could hardly write. I like the fact that you mentioned the roll of the ED staff and how they would have to be complicit with the big bad HOSPITAL – when I was writing I kept thinking “what about the staff, patient advocacy, etc.” I did not mention that in my article, but you did and it’s a great point.
PS
“Emergency Room” comes out of my mouth on occasion, I catch myself about 50% of the time.
Must…not….do….that… <– said in best William Shatner imitation : )
Nurse K said
But “ED” is the common abbreviation for “erectile dysfunction”. I can’t get over that.
It’s an EMTALA violation for a direct admit from another hospital to board in the ER, so they get bed priorities. Yawn.
The Happy Hospitalist said
Ah, but I accept direct admits all the time without insurance. Infact, I have no idea what their insurance is when I accept them. On Unless of course they are a VA patient in the ER and I explain to them that Uncle Sam has decided not to renew their VA benefits contract with my hospital. At which point I tell them that when I determine they are stable (which is often in the ER) they can either stay at my hospital under their other insurance if they have it or as a self pay, or they can travel 60 miles to their federally funded VA and have Uncle Sam pay for their care. Guess what happens to those with other insurance and those without.
Albinoblackbear said
Not to mention the fact that boarding patients in the ED makes the department come….to….a….screeching….halt.
Plus staring at the same medical admit patients all night is something none of us attention-span-deficit-emergency-workers can tolerate for very long anyway. As if we’d ever do that to ourselves intentionally! HA!
Great post.
MonkeyGirl said
Even this article couldn’t inspire a rant from me. I think that’s a pretty good sign that I’m done blogging.
Thanks for picking up the slack.
BTW, I always say ER when I’m speaking. When I’m writing, it’s about a 50/50 mix ED vs ER.
Now that I know it bugs you, I’ll prolly write ER all the time just to make you cringe.
Tex said
Whitecoat, dude, love your blog, but ER is a catch-all term for a place (not a specific room). I switch back and forth between ED and ER bout 50-50. They are interchangable.
Do they call the OR the OD? (yeah, I know, they call it Surgery).
Anyways, keep ranting!!
scalpel said
“It’s the emergency department, not the emergency room.
Loosen your neck scarf, it must be too tight.
/poke
mottsapplesauce said
WhiteCoat–
I read one of the discussion posts from the “Waiting Doom” article & nurse TNT ER-RN posted a great comment to that story.
Basically not all practitioners are held to the same rules that govern an E.D.- read it if you haven’t already. This whole post was a little out of my league but I love your rants.
Keep on truckin.
alexa-blue said
Russ Roberts gives an introduction to incentives here. The basic tenor of this thread (specifically, “conspiracy theory”) suggests widespread economic illiteracy.
Bad Medicine » Do CEOs respond to incentives: the shocking, shocking truth. said
[...] you must be well-informed to make accusations of slander. Meanwhile, White Coat writes of a “conspiracy theory,” that I think is more indicative of economic [...]
Rogue Medic said
Scalpel,
White Coat in an ascot?
Tex,
I keep hearing “surgical suite.” Maybe they have a concierge.
Alexa-Blue,
Economic illiteracy? In America? Statistical Illiteracy, too. You pretty much need an ignorance of probability to back up conspiracy theories. People, no matter how much education they have, seem to be oblivious of the actual likelihood of unusual events. By attributing it to some plot they feel that life is less random. Random is scary for the ignorant.
Rogue Medic said
Then I throw in my punctuation confusion.
batguano101 said
The article in Slate addressed your self centered uncaring over work, insulating yourself from patients to let them die on the floor.
No it does not matter if you call it ER or ED.
Yes, it does matter you rant about everything but what counts- checking on a patient laying on the floor.
US Health Care is bad.
It is bad because you care more what something is called than the life of a patent on the floor.
Medicine was a profession, now it is not.
It is corruption, greed, arrogance, and incompetence pretending to be a profession.
Racketeering is not a profession.
But above all, you just do not care what happens to the patients one way or the other.
Go into investment banking.
Your broad generalizations are nonsensical and offensive.
Suppose that during Super Bowl Sunday you go to the grocery store and only two checkout lanes are open. The lines are horrendous. The wait is forever.
Do you yell at the clerks who are overworked and understaffed when they try their best to keep up with the crowds? Are the clerks “arrogant, greedy, and incompetent” because they don’t let you purchase your Doritos and Viagra quickly enough? I suppose the clerks don’t care what happen to the people in line, either. They’re just in it for the money.
If you are so fed up with US healthcare, don’t go to doctors. Take out your own appendix, chew on some foxglove plants for your arrhythmias and you won’t have to pay for anything but a scalpel and some flower seeds.
Then you’ll get PERFECT care … right?
alexa-blue said
Rogue: to be clear, an economically literate reading of the Slate piece would have recognized that it was talking about incentives and how to fix them, not conspiracy theorizing.
What incentives? What solutions do the authors offer?
Educate me – the lowly Neanderthal of an ED physician.
scalpel said
“Go into investment banking.”
Then he’d have to wear a tie.
Moron.
batguano101 said
Scalpel-
Spoken as a true Texas clone.
Between 79 and 82 the reversed values cult grabbed control of the board and all of medicine in Texas.
Anyone in the system there is so twisted by it “me” is all the horizon they can see.
You grew up in a cult so non-cult thought is foreign and offensive.
Leave the cult state, you might heal up.
girlvet said
Somehow Madness: Tales of an Emergency DEPARTMENT Nurse just wouldn’t be the same……har har
OK. Good point. You get “grandmothered” in – only because I love reading your blog so much.
WhiteCoat said
Alexa Blue:
Thanks for the article. It was actually a good read. Too bad it doesn’t apply to emergency medicine.
Uwe Reinhardt I’m not. But you need to have a better understanding of the economics of emergency medicine before you spout off at the mouth.
Let’s use the “captains of cruelty” example in the article you cited. There are a plethora of differences between a captain who is paid per person to assure the safe arrival of prisoners and a hospital administrator’s goals in an emergency department. Here’s just one example:
The captain’s boat has essentially fixed overhead aside from the food and medications. Even that variable overhead is probably minimal. Whether there are three people on the boat or 30,000 people on the boat, it costs pretty much the same to sail it. If you get paid per live person delivered, there is a Bell curve wherein the more people you squeeze in the boat, the higher your profit margin. Eventually if there is too much overcrowding, poor sanitiation and dying convicts will offset the increased number of people brought aboard the ship. In general, though, if you fit more people on the ship, maybe some of them die, but you will still get more people to the other shore alive. The added live convicts will offset those that die on the trip.
On the other hand, some hospital administrators lose money every time a certain percentage of “convicts” (self-pay and Medicaid patients) enter the hospital. Those hospitals with high numbers of “paying” convicts have an incentive to make the convicts as healthy as possible. Those with high numbers of non-paying “convicts” lose money on supplies used, lose money on diagnostic testing, lose money on malpractice costs, lose money on staffing, and on and on and on. Some states such as New York pay a flat fee of $17.50 for every Medicaid patient walking through the door. Keeping the lights on in a hospital costs more than that. Imagine a patient that needs costly thrombolytics.
I understand that the overriding principle in the article is one of “incentives” in general. The U of Penn article cites the hospital’s “bottom line” in suggesting that it is economically advantageous to hold patients in the ED. Sure, you don’t have to pay as many nurses. Then the overworked nurse makes a mistake or delays giving a medication that costs the hospital millions in a malpractice lawsuit. Still an economically sound idea? So, assuming that it could be done, explain to me how it is economically advantageous to hold indigent patients in the emergency department.
How about the demand curve – when something gets more expensive, people buy less of it. When it gets less expensive, people buy more of it. Exactly the opposite in emergency medicine. Can’t refuse services in the emergency department lest you violate EMTALA. Walking in the door, then, people know they don’t have to pay for the services they receive. Once patients are inside the door, the incentive is for almost every patient to get more expensive things because they don’t pay for them. Patients on public assistance and Medicare don’t see a bill. The people with insurance pay a co-pay and/or deductible. After those are out of the way, it’s medical testing bonanza! Lab me up, doc! The insurance company’s paying for it! Of course if the system were suddenly changed so that everyone had to pay for everything, then the demand curve kicks in .. but so does a public uproar. How could we prevent needy people without money from receiving “necessary” care?
Perhaps we apply the demand curve to the greedy hospital administrators. Prices go up, so they want people who don’t pay to use less product. Keep indigent patients from being admitted so they don’t use the resources on the floor. So do you think that patients are just held in limbo in the ED? They sit there for three days and nothing gets done? Tests get done. Physicians evaluate them. More tests get done. It’s just that patients in the ED get wheeled back to their ED bed (or the hall) rather than to their floor bed.
For the sake of argument, lets assume that the Stan and Ollie from the U of Penn really have an inside track on how to beat the system. Administrators are able to save money by making things difficult on people who don’t pay for their care. Make them wait in the ED and eventually they leave AMA. cha-CHING! Money in the administrator’s pocket!
There’s another fly in the ointment. In order to effectuate his wishes, an administrator would have to enlist the help of the physician running the ED (usually a member of an independent physician’s group) to admit one patient over another. The nursing supervisor who assigns the beds would also have to be an accomplice. The nurse in the ED who just wants to move patients out of the ED would also have to be in on little game. The admitting doc might even get involved if a sick patient isn’t up on the floor quickly enough or if the admitting doc sees another patient come to the floor before his indigent patient. If any one of these other entities don’t go along with the “conspiracy,” then the whole “perverse incentive” falls through. ED doc says I’m admitting sickest patient first – regardless of insurance – administrator gets no extra money. Nursing supervisor says “that patient’s sicker than the one with insurance” – administrator gets no extra money. ED nurse does reconnaissance mission to the floor and sees that beds are open – deadbeat patient gets a bed – administrator gets no extra money. So there has to be a conspiracy of at least four, and possibly more, people in order for the University of Pennsylvania “keep the indigent patient in the ED” incentive can work.
It is not an incentive for a grocery store owner to force the people with food stamps to the back of the line. It is not an incentive for police to respond only to calls from odd-numbered addresses. And it is not an incentive to keep an indigent patient in the ED as opposed to on the medical floor.
Keep to discussions of economics on topics about which you have some familiarity.
The ED obviously isn’t one of them.
batguano101 said
“#
Your broad generalizations are nonsensical and offensive.
Suppose that during Super Bowl Sunday you go to the grocery store and only two checkout lanes are open. The lines are horrendous. The wait is forever.
Do you yell at the clerks who are overworked and understaffed when they try their best to keep up with the crowds? Are the clerks “arrogant, greedy, and incompetent” because they don’t let you purchase your Doritos and Viagra quickly enough? I suppose the clerks don’t care what happen to the people in line, either. They’re just in it for the money.
If you are so fed up with US healthcare, don’t go to doctors. Take out your own appendix, chew on some foxglove plants for your arrhythmias and you won’t have to pay for anything but a scalpel and some flower seeds.
Then you’ll get PERFECT care … right?”
…………..
You are perfect for the TBME.
You might even be Federation of Boards of Medical Examiners material.
And that is fine.
The highest and perhaps only positive function of medical politics is to draw the fatty floaters off the clinical practice pool into their own ranks.
scalpel said
The Speaker?
mottsapplesauce said
Batguano101,
Do you live in the U.S.? If so, what would you have done to prevent (not the same as delay) Ms. Green’s death? It is heinous that she was ignored–no one will argue that. There are problems with the current health care system. No shit Sherlock tell us something we don’t already know. Are you basing your judgement on her incident alone? Calling E.D. practitioners & other clinicians corrupt, greedy, arrogant & imcompetent is very naive. These E.D. clinicians have NO CHOICE of who they can/cannot accept. It’s the insurance industry that dictates who goes where & gets what services, not the providers. If you don’t live in the U.S., what is your current health care system like? Flame away…..
batguano101 said
Motts-
Checking a patient laying on the floor was and is indicated.
Nothing said, and no manner of posing the question can avoid that.
“Medicine was a profession, now it is not.”
Read the personal correspondence of physicians from the 1950’s back, not their published papers, their personal letters to friends and loved ones, to businesses and community institutions.
Then you may answer yourself if I am naive.
Tincture of time will instruct you in the inner workings and practices of those in control of the institution of medicine today.
mottsapplesauce said
OK– whatever Bat– you’re entitled to your opinion like everyone else here. Nice segue to avoid answering a question.
Medicine has changed somewhat since 1950. I can’t compete with someone on a self-righteous Cartesian plane. You win.
batguano101 said
Translation
“OK– whatever Bat– you’re entitled to your opinion like everyone else here.” –
Every thing is relative- there is no truth in your remarks because I label them “Your” remarks devoid of truth. I cannot refute what you state therefore declare it of no value.
“Nice segue to avoid answering a question.”-
You ignored my ploy and addressed the central issue of professional ethics and moral responsibility. I acknowledge I am only playing games of one-up-man-ship rather than honestly considering the issue.
“Medicine has changed somewhat since 1950.”-
I have no idea what the word profession means much less what medicine as a profession was and have no intention of finding out so I will pretend you do not refer to that but the the technical advances after 1950.
I discount that you refer to medicine from 1950 back in time for thousands of years, and by attaching my remark to the year 1950 make that a starting point forward discounting those thousands of years.
“I can’t compete with someone on a self-righteous Cartesian plane.” -
The only way to defend and cling to the idea of leaving a patient unattended on the floor totally ignored is defensible is to accuse you of being self righteous.
This is not about right or wrong, only personal defense mechanisms and I am not about to look at myself critically for defending subhuman values.
Human kindness and compassion, moral values, are a minor and unrealistic fringe group of people who are only self-righteous, therefore discountable and contemptible, beneath medicine today.
There is no subhuman behavior- anything goes.
“You win.”-
Your remarks are of no value therefore conceding in a demeaning manner demonstrate I not only remain unmoved by the argument of human versus subhuman standards of conduct I mock them.
After all there is no truth, only games and who wins is he who discounts truth for technique.
mottsapplesauce said
Bat,
Your response represents only your own interpretation of my comment, not a factual translation. Just like I interpret what your comments might or might not seem to insinuate. If I could get my hands on the personal correspondance of physicians from the 1950’s back I would read it. I never stated your comments are of no value, I just feel you’re taking this issue to a level beyond human comprehension. I was sincerely curious as to how you came about your opinion of Whitecoat and medicine in general, but you didn’t want to indulge me. You are obviously a highly intelligent person, but you can’t divulge your reasons for personally attacking the author of this blog.
I may have called you naive, but I never indicated you were a poor example of a human being. Human compassion & kindness are qualities that I endure, despite what you may perceive to know about me. It’s what I base my occupation on, not a bottom line. You assume a lot Bat, which tincture of time has instructed me that is very unwise.
rogue medic said
Alexa-blue,
You wrote, “The basic tenor of this thread (specifically, ‘conspiracy theory’
suggests widespread economic illiteracy.”
I did not read the article you linked. I was commenting on this post, or thread. The idea that all of the people in the hospital, who have a say in who is admitted, cooperate to prevent uninsured patients from receiving appropriate care, is a conspiracy theory.
People believe in conspiracies because they do not understand the statistical likelihood of unrelated events occurring together.
If you believe that Mephistopheles is able to corrupt all of the people who get into health care. Not just those who become doctors for the wrong reasons, but those who care for others because they actually care about others.
To believe all of the people in the hospital engage in any cooperation, to improve the finances of the hospital at the expense of the patient, is to believe in an absurd conspiracy. As Dr. WhiteCoat explains, there are too many people involved for the conspiracy to work.
Cooperation.
Collusion.
Corruption.
Conspiracy.
These are all the same thing, when you extend this economic argument to health care. Yes, there are some isolated cases of fraud, but they exist in everything, not just health care. Does that make everything corrupt?
So True … « WhiteCoat’s Call Room said
[...] Not ER Doc, ED Doc. [...]
sonnet said
I like your blog.
ED is end-diastolic for cardiologist
ED is endothelial dysfunstion sometime
ED is erectile dysfunction
but here ED or ER is so nice post